Hey Mrs. Mortiz, the class has formed the two circles, and students are finishing having their questions checked by Mrs. Boldman, we should start within 5 or so minutes.
When Marduk stood before all the other gods and said "Do not be concerned. I shall go and carry out your heart's desire! After all, it is not as if a male has come against you. Tiamat, for all her weapons, is only a women!" (155) I think this shows how the roles in Mesopotamia came to be. It shows why the society thinks the man is stronger and better.
According to the text, man is made by the supreme god, Marduk, but was made using Kingu, a wicked god. Is this a contradiction, and what does it reveal about humanity?
Marduk merely seems like the supreme god, not a "good" god, so a "neutral" god creating humans from an evil god isn't a contradiction, but it does imply that humans are in someway made in the image of their gods, and may be intrinsically evil.
Matthew, this is definitely a contradiction. I think that its important to know that Mesopotamian people believe that they come from evil, and because of that they might believe that they will never be as good as the gods.
The discussion started. First inner circle question: In order to maintain peace and life, is it completely necessary to destroy that disturbance, even if it is your child?
Matthew, I think that the creation of man from good and bad gods represents the good and bad in humanity. All humans are capable of generosity and evil.
Becca, the values and vices of the gods are very similar those that we would have seen during the era in Mesopotamia, the constant struggle for power in the early days of "government" (as in the executive rule of the early days) is very similar to what we see in the Enuma Elish. The struggle for power we see in this story is the same as we see throughout history in fact and is very indicative of human nature.
To respond to Matthew, i do think that when man is made by a supreme god but was made using a wicked god is a big contradiction. Supreme god are good and not wicked which doesnt really make sense why he would use a wicked god. Humanity is also like this though. Humans are good but also wicked and evil.
To reply to the inner circle's question... I don't think you need to necessarily destroy the disturbance, but try to make peace. I guess we can connect this to real world though, and making peace is very difficult.
I agree with Karyn, there is always a second side, and by using a good and bad god in creation, it was the Mesopotamians' method of expressing this idea.
I believe that instead of destroying the disturbance, finding an alternative to stop the disturbances is better. In anything, finding any way to stop a disturbance that is not violent is the best solution.
Also, to answer Matthew, this is why we see the struggle between good and evil in human nature. The fact that humans were formed from the murdered god Kingu simply tells me that humans were formed with imperfection and that was the best way for the mesopotamian society to see this.
Karyn, I think it's because it was the start of the world or how it was created so each god thought they would be more fit than the other to rule the new world
Inner Circle: The new generation has to eventually take over the old generation. It is necessary in the circle of life. Are there examples of this in our society?
There will always be inherent conflict within societies, and this society of gods happens to be composed of what is essentially a big family. The conflict still occurs here, and warring gods is nothing new in mythology.
@MatthewC I would say that mankind was made in the god, Marduk's image, but because we were made using Kingu, we are imperfect, unlike the Gods. The image of mankind is based on the qualities of the perfect gods, but are still made with evil, so we are not perfect like the gods, we are human.
Killing the children that they created I don't think is necessary even if they are rude, have bad manners and activities are annoying, trying to shape them into what is more appropriate to their standards. Even today we have those misunderstandings with adults and their children.
Responding to the inner circle question I believe it does symbolize a conflict between teen and parent. The reason for this is because of the different generations. I think that it is the separation in how they grew up and the environment that they were in.
'Murdock then raised his mighty weapon, the flooding rainstorm, against the enraged Tiamat and said, "Why have you begun such an evil conflict? You are attacking your own children!" 'The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few, in other words if your children insists on having there own way regardless of the collateral damage, they need to be thought a lesson. It's up to the parent to decided how harsh the punishment must be.
@Matthew I don't think that having people come from Kingu necessarily means we came from evil- Kingu was used more as a sacrifice in order to produce something good to gods. Because he did wrong towards the other Gods, it was his right to be sacrificed. It could also justify cultural sacrifices, although I'm unsure of whether the Mesopotamian people used sacrifice.
Just look around you. Every year, the seniors think they are going to be so different from the previous senior classes. That they are better than the other generations. I think that yes, you should be proud of your senior class GO 2014! but you are not that much different from previous senior classes. :(
This can be closely tied to the Enuma Elish, in that the later descendants of gods were wiser than previous generations. This would seem to describe a culture that was focused more on future generations than the current problems and solutions. Now though, the difference between generations way become even larger, with the recent advances in globalization and technology.
There are many exampled of the new generation taking over the old. The inner circle is talking about technology and that is the perfect example. Technology, as it becomes older, new designs and products come out to take over the old products.
Going off of Becca, is it better to have several "relatable" gods with vices and virtues, or to have one "untouchable and almighty" God? What are the pros and cons of each?
Based on the question of the inner circle, I would say that the difference between the older gods and the newer gods almost conflicts like a generation gap, like adults and teenagers. We are very different, and have changed beliefs and attitudes on how to run things, but we still find a way to run alongside each other, because soon the younger gods will be the old ones, and there will be yet another generation. It will continue to run in this cycle always.
@Zach, I agree that there are multiple facets to every perspective. But if you are implying that there is always an opposite to every good, I would disagree. For something to be evil, it has to have other certain qualities which we consider good to make up its identity, such as being sentient, having the capacity to feel, and just plain exist. Therefore evil is not the opposite of good, but rather a perversion of it.
I don't think that the older and younger gods' conflict symbolize human conflict between teenagers and parents because the young gods were different to teenagers' nowadays. The young gods were very important in society and would eventually age into the older gods. The decisions they chose to make had an major influence in their society, so I believe it's hard to make such a broad connection.
I think the generation transfer is very similar to our society today and how our generation is slowly taking over the older generation and causing problems just like it did back then.
Emily- I also believe though that , our generation may cause more problems but we also solve more problems , which in the olden times wasn't so much the case.
Taking your children's life , there is no excuse or explanation. Because your children may not be exactly how you wish them to be give you no right to take there lives.
In response to the inner circle, I believe that most people live their life serving other things than themselves, whether its serving God or people in their community.
Inner Circle: The universe always likes to be in disorder, but humans always try and put it back into order. The universe thrives off disorder, so why do we crave order? (Nicole)
I believe that because we are very similar to how the older generation used to be, that causes conflict. We are not very different from each other,and that scares people.
@Greg-I would agree, there is not necessarily a good and an evil side, just many different sides, not necessarily opposed or opposites, just different.
If we go down to a very basic level, our purpose as humans could be to live and make the best life for ourselves. I think we feel more of a drive to provide for ourselves and our families than we do to serve a "greater good".
New Question: What does the complexity of the language in the myth reflect the complexity of the society? In other words, what does it say about the peoples of Mesopotamia that they had significantly evolved language that went beyond the simple necessities of daily life?
Humans sole purpose (scientifically speaking) is to continue the species through reproduction. In this sense humans are serving a single purpose. This purpose however has been skewed by the idea of free will. People are able to choose not to have kids yet our species continues. The idea that we are ment to serve a "higher" or sole purpose is only a means of escape so people know what they're walking up for every morning.
Greg, I disagree. Someone's personality doesn't depend on a certain definition or set standards. Someone's "identity" can be whatever according to the person. So no, one person doesn't have to have something that's good to exist. Also, who's to say what's good and what's bad?
Becca I think that the complexity of the language is indicative of what we talked about on Wednesday. What we are seeing here is just a growing complexity within the story telling of a society. It is only natural that the language begins to evolve as more things are explained by story.
I think it's interesting how the gods, "...create a savage and call him 'man'". It just seems odd that as a story created by man, they would consider themselves savage.
I Believe that their religion was their structure in their society. It influences their daily lives greatly in what they do and how they act. They use religion to give them another purpose to life. Somewhere to go in the afterlife.
Responding to the inner circle question. The entire lives of the Babylonian people revolved around religion because they believed in the Enuma Elish story which explains that humans were created to serve the gods. Serving gods was the purpose of their lives.
Courtney, a relatable god would be easier to connect to because they seem more human. However that could be a con as well because if followers see their god as more of a human character they may think that they are basically the same. An all powerful god would never have anyone question their divinity but they wouldn't be as approachable as other relatable gods.
Answering Nicole's question in the inner circle, I believe humans crave order because it is predictable and comforting. Whenever something is out of line, it creates problems and feelings and chaos. You know what to expect when everything is orderly.
As a response to a new inner circle question posed, I agree with Matthew in stating that their religion adds a purpose in life. People strive for the afterlife and the glory that will happen there.
But the people in Babylon believed that afterlife was dark and not glorious. In the intro it says "the Babylonians believed that human beings has to make the most of their lives, in a world that lacked security and hope." (pg 152) So what where they striving for in their religion during their lives?
I agree that our purpose in life is to serve, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a higher power. People can serve things outside of what they see as a dominant authority- people have the ability to serve their passions or interests, those they care for, etc. It's unnecessary for this to be in context of "greatness", any form of serving can achieve the same depth and meaning in life.
George, I agree with you but I think that their religion was not only their structure in their society, but their lives pretty much WERE their religion. They didnt just "use" their religion to give them another purpose. They viewed their religion as the only purpose of their life. They lived for it.
Michael, while they may be innately corrupt, there can still be morals within the society. We are both innately flawed and yet at the sometime capable of doing great things.
Inner Circle: p.157 "Then the gods brought forth a garment, placed it before Marduk, and said, 'To prove your power , make this garment vanish and reappear." - Does this text relate to outside material? For example, Jesus turns water into wine. His disciples demanded proof, while his close disciples didn't question him.
To answer the inner circle's question about religion... Religion plays a huge role in the lives of the Babylonians. Based on the reading we did, humans were created to serve the gods. Also, they believed that natural disasters were the result of the gods' wrath. So religion was really the base of Babylonian life and was a basis for all of their actions.
Religion to the Babylonians is indeed very important and affect daily life everyday to these people. Religion is thought of everyday, and is very important to them, it has always been and still is very important.
Questioning everything is our human nature and that's why now throughout time we have come to everyone having a right to religion and everyone can think what they want, back then I don't think they had a choice
Question: What motive can you see to having such an indirect storyline to creating human and what influenced the society to be so polytheistic as opposed to the common monotheism that we see today?
I think that throughout this story, and mythology in general, humans are struggling not only to understand why they exist but also to remember some of their history. Myth is an attempt to bring a deeper meaning to life more than to fill in a "back story" for the events of their lives.
Vivian, I think this shows that the idea of humility has been important to multiple cultures throughout the ages and shows the people who is the true leader
@EmilyJ, I never said that person had to be good to exist. I just wanted to say that good and evil are not necessarily opposites. If you would like to debate the idea that there is such a thing as good or evil I would be more than happy to. I agree that the actions we take form our identity, but parts of ourselves are also defined by the external, such as our environment, and the people around us. Otherwise nurture is completely disregarded in nature vs. nuture.
I think that Babylonians lived their life with one main goal and that goal was to have a good afterlife. So many of their traditions and everyday activities were based off of their religious beliefs.
In conjunction with the inner circle, why was Tiamat's death significant? How does the death of the primary mother goddess affect psychological and gender roles in society?
Greg I believe that authority is both innate and bestowed. Obviously in the story Marduk is crowned god of all gods by someone else, but he would not have risen to the challenges that he faced if he was not a leader.
To respond to the maternal/paternal based discussion from earlier. I think there is a misunderstanding amongst some of you as to how the gods relate to humans. Killing your god son is far different from a parent murdering their child today. The gods (except Marduk as we read) are capable of taking care of themselves from birth and are not nurtured into existence. They are instantly equals with their parents rather than what we see on Earth where there is a certain dependance on parental figures for guidance.
The whole women vs. men topic takes root in ancient ancient times when woman were mostly seen as preparing food and for nurturing. Most women weren't capable of anything like hunting which is apparently superior to cooking. This is how people began to believe men were superior. From this hunting point in time men were brainwashed to believe that they were superior in every way, and this is why it is evident in the reading for today.
@Michael... Tiamat's death was significant because it represented the end of a corrupted generation. It effected the gender roles by putting men over women in society.
Michael, Tiamat's death was significant because it started basically a new age. It is a little like how the Greek Gods defeated the Titans to start their new age. I think it affected gender roles because the people saw that a woman lost badly to a man. It might have just strengthened the thought that men were better.
Going off of Vivian said, I believe that most our culture today is really based around the idea of believing in what you see in. We can all believe that Obama is our current president, because he's here, and he's present. But to believe in a god is so much more different, because it requires people to present their faith without a physical figure. Any god isn't a tangible figure, but someone who is so much more than us, which leaves us to decide for ourselves if God/gods do exist, without nothing more than a bible.
Inner Circle: Egyptian Gods vs. Babylonian gods. The Egyptians saw their gods as predictable while the Babylonians didn't. Think about this...The nile is very predictable when it floods; however, the Tigris and Euphrates are not. Coincidence?
@Courtney B, so why is authority not completely innate? Wouldn't he just have risen to authority from the beginning if he were a born-leader? Why would he need their approval?
In addition to what Marco has said, if you look at all of history--oral stories throughout modern day text, women have always caused the downfall of men. :(
Michael, I think the death of the mother god is more indicative of the loss of perfection and the spread of corruption that has occured over history. When Tiamat was killed, it marked the end to the reign of either of the two gods that were originally reigning. Trully this is the mark of true widespread expansion of corruption in my opinion.
I'm here. Let me know when you start.
ReplyDeleteHello.
DeleteHey Mrs. Mortiz, the class has formed the two circles, and students are finishing having their questions checked by Mrs. Boldman, we should start within 5 or so minutes.
ReplyDeleteHere we go...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGot it. Let's roll.
ReplyDelete@Greg--why 2 circles?
inner and outer for the discussion
DeleteNo--there should be one inner circle and one outer circle and the discussion should move between the two!
DeleteShe accidentally flipped the two, when she typed, we have them right, don't worry.
DeleteLet's start the discussion!
ReplyDeleteAre we just answering the questions posed by our inner circle or are we also posing our own questions into the Blog for discussion?
ReplyDeleteExactly Garrett.
ReplyDeleteHow does the representation of the gods reflect the virtues and vices of Mesopotamian society?
ReplyDeleteWhen Marduk stood before all the other gods and said "Do not be concerned. I shall go and carry out your heart's desire! After all, it is not as if a male has come against you. Tiamat, for all her weapons, is only a women!" (155) I think this shows how the roles in Mesopotamia came to be. It shows why the society thinks the man is stronger and better.
DeleteAccording to the text, man is made by the supreme god, Marduk, but was made using Kingu, a wicked god. Is this a contradiction, and what does it reveal about humanity?
ReplyDeleteMarduk merely seems like the supreme god, not a "good" god, so a "neutral" god creating humans from an evil god isn't a contradiction, but it does imply that humans are in someway made in the image of their gods, and may be intrinsically evil.
DeleteMatthew, this is definitely a contradiction. I think that its important to know that Mesopotamian people believe that they come from evil, and because of that they might believe that they will never be as good as the gods.
DeleteWhy is having an everlasting impression/everlasting life so important to the Babylonian culture
ReplyDeleteBecause the afterlife isn't very appealing.
DeleteThe discussion started. First inner circle question: In order to maintain peace and life, is it completely necessary to destroy that disturbance, even if it is your child?
ReplyDeleteMatthew, I think that the creation of man from good and bad gods represents the good and bad in humanity. All humans are capable of generosity and evil.
ReplyDelete@MatthewC
ReplyDeleteI would say that this reflects a belief that Mankind is essentially evil and the gods represent their salvation.
Becca, the values and vices of the gods are very similar those that we would have seen during the era in Mesopotamia, the constant struggle for power in the early days of "government" (as in the executive rule of the early days) is very similar to what we see in the Enuma Elish. The struggle for power we see in this story is the same as we see throughout history in fact and is very indicative of human nature.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely Garrett. Change only occurs because of chaos or struggle.
DeleteWhy is order so important in this legend?
ReplyDeleteTo respond to Matthew, i do think that when man is made by a supreme god but was made using a wicked god is a big contradiction. Supreme god are good and not wicked which doesnt really make sense why he would use a wicked god. Humanity is also like this though. Humans are good but also wicked and evil.
ReplyDeleteTo reply to the inner circle's question... I don't think you need to necessarily destroy the disturbance, but try to make peace. I guess we can connect this to real world though, and making peace is very difficult.
ReplyDeleteInner Circle: Does the conflict between the older and younger gods symbolize human conflict between teenagers and parents?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Karyn, there is always a second side, and by using a good and bad god in creation, it was the Mesopotamians' method of expressing this idea.
ReplyDeleteI believe that instead of destroying the disturbance, finding an alternative to stop the disturbances is better. In anything, finding any way to stop a disturbance that is not violent is the best solution.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to answer Matthew, this is why we see the struggle between good and evil in human nature. The fact that humans were formed from the murdered god Kingu simply tells me that humans were formed with imperfection and that was the best way for the mesopotamian society to see this.
ReplyDeleteKaryn, I think it's because it was the start of the world or how it was created so each god thought they would be more fit than the other to rule the new world
ReplyDeleteInner Circle: The new generation has to eventually take over the old generation. It is necessary in the circle of life. Are there examples of this in our society?
ReplyDeleteThere will always be inherent conflict within societies, and this society of gods happens to be composed of what is essentially a big family. The conflict still occurs here, and warring gods is nothing new in mythology.
ReplyDelete@MatthewC I would say that mankind was made in the god, Marduk's image, but because we were made using Kingu, we are imperfect, unlike the Gods. The image of mankind is based on the qualities of the perfect gods, but are still made with evil, so we are not perfect like the gods, we are human.
ReplyDeleteKilling the children that they created I don't think is necessary even if they are rude, have bad manners and activities are annoying, trying to shape them into what is more appropriate to their standards. Even today we have those misunderstandings with adults and their children.
ReplyDeleteResponding to the inner circle question I believe it does symbolize a conflict between teen and parent. The reason for this is because of the different generations. I think that it is the separation in how they grew up and the environment that they were in.
ReplyDelete'Murdock then raised his mighty weapon, the flooding rainstorm, against the enraged Tiamat and said, "Why have you begun such an evil conflict? You are attacking your own children!"
ReplyDelete'The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few, in other words if your children insists on having there own way regardless of the collateral damage, they need to be thought a lesson. It's up to the parent to decided how harsh the punishment must be.
How does the Gods impact the childhood?
ReplyDelete@Matthew
ReplyDeleteI don't think that having people come from Kingu necessarily means we came from evil- Kingu was used more as a sacrifice in order to produce something good to gods. Because he did wrong towards the other Gods, it was his right to be sacrificed. It could also justify cultural sacrifices, although I'm unsure of whether the Mesopotamian people used sacrifice.
Just look around you. Every year, the seniors think they are going to be so different from the previous senior classes. That they are better than the other generations. I think that yes, you should be proud of your senior class GO 2014! but you are not that much different from previous senior classes. :(
ReplyDeleteThis can be closely tied to the Enuma Elish, in that the later descendants of gods were wiser than previous generations. This would seem to describe a culture that was focused more on future generations than the current problems and solutions. Now though, the difference between generations way become even larger, with the recent advances in globalization and technology.
DeleteThere are many exampled of the new generation taking over the old. The inner circle is talking about technology and that is the perfect example. Technology, as it becomes older, new designs and products come out to take over the old products.
ReplyDeleteInner Circle: As humans, is it our sole purpose to serve in life? (religion, children)
ReplyDeleteGoing off of Becca, is it better to have several "relatable" gods with vices and virtues, or to have one "untouchable and almighty" God? What are the pros and cons of each?
ReplyDeleteBased on the question of the inner circle, I would say that the difference between the older gods and the newer gods almost conflicts like a generation gap, like adults and teenagers. We are very different, and have changed beliefs and attitudes on how to run things, but we still find a way to run alongside each other, because soon the younger gods will be the old ones, and there will be yet another generation. It will continue to run in this cycle always.
ReplyDelete@Zach, I agree that there are multiple facets to every perspective. But if you are implying that there is always an opposite to every good, I would disagree. For something to be evil, it has to have other certain qualities which we consider good to make up its identity, such as being sentient, having the capacity to feel, and just plain exist. Therefore evil is not the opposite of good, but rather a perversion of it.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the older and younger gods' conflict symbolize human conflict between teenagers and parents because the young gods were different to teenagers' nowadays. The young gods were very important in society and would eventually age into the older gods. The decisions they chose to make had an major influence in their society, so I believe it's hard to make such a broad connection.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we are all here to serve to better ourselves.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you Jaylen, but how so?
DeleteI think the generation transfer is very similar to our society today and how our generation is slowly taking over the older generation and causing problems just like it did back then.
ReplyDeleteEmily- I also believe though that , our generation may cause more problems but we also solve more problems , which in the olden times wasn't so much the case.
DeleteTaking your children's life , there is no excuse or explanation. Because your children may not be exactly how you wish them to be give you no right to take there lives.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, but don't you think many parents do this in other ways? Abuse, etc.
DeleteYes such as social, mental abuse but to punish your child it should not be in the physical category
Delete@Jaylen--When you serve others, does it better yourself?
ReplyDeleteIn response to the inner circle, I believe that most people live their life serving other things than themselves, whether its serving God or people in their community.
ReplyDelete@ GarrettD
ReplyDeleteIf the Mesopotamians saw humans as intrinsically corrupt, what kind of laws or morals would this society have had?
Inner Circle: The universe always likes to be in disorder, but humans always try and put it back into order. The universe thrives off disorder, so why do we crave order? (Nicole)
ReplyDeleteI believe that because we are very similar to how the older generation used to be, that causes conflict. We are not very different from each other,and that scares people.
ReplyDeleteI think people have a duty to serve themselves and you see that a lot more today that people are consumed with being successful
ReplyDelete@Greg-I would agree, there is not necessarily a good and an evil side, just many different sides, not necessarily opposed or opposites, just different.
ReplyDeleteIf we go down to a very basic level, our purpose as humans could be to live and make the best life for ourselves. I think we feel more of a drive to provide for ourselves and our families than we do to serve a "greater good".
ReplyDeleteNew Question:
ReplyDeleteWhat does the complexity of the language in the myth reflect the complexity of the society? In other words, what does it say about the peoples of Mesopotamia that they had significantly evolved language that went beyond the simple necessities of daily life?
Inner circle: How does religion effect the daily lives of the Babylonian people?
ReplyDeleteHumans sole purpose (scientifically speaking) is to continue the species through reproduction. In this sense humans are serving a single purpose. This purpose however has been skewed by the idea of free will. People are able to choose not to have kids yet our species continues. The idea that we are ment to serve a "higher" or sole purpose is only a means of escape so people know what they're walking up for every morning.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible for authority to be innate? Or can authority only be bestowed, and why?
ReplyDeleteGreg, I disagree. Someone's personality doesn't depend on a certain definition or set standards. Someone's "identity" can be whatever according to the person. So no, one person doesn't have to have something that's good to exist. Also, who's to say what's good and what's bad?
ReplyDeleteWould adding a new time of life, add to religion ??
ReplyDeleteBecca I think that the complexity of the language is indicative of what we talked about on Wednesday. What we are seeing here is just a growing complexity within the story telling of a society. It is only natural that the language begins to evolve as more things are explained by story.
ReplyDeleteI think it's interesting how the gods, "...create a savage and call him 'man'". It just seems odd that as a story created by man, they would consider themselves savage.
ReplyDeleteI think this is an interesting comment. It makes you think about where the story originally came from and for what original purpose it was created.
DeleteI Believe that their religion was their structure in their society. It influences their daily lives greatly in what they do and how they act. They use religion to give them another purpose to life. Somewhere to go in the afterlife.
ReplyDeleteResponding to the inner circle question.
ReplyDeleteThe entire lives of the Babylonian people revolved around religion because they believed in the Enuma Elish story which explains that humans were created to serve the gods. Serving gods was the purpose of their lives.
Courtney, a relatable god would be easier to connect to because they seem more human. However that could be a con as well because if followers see their god as more of a human character they may think that they are basically the same. An all powerful god would never have anyone question their divinity but they wouldn't be as approachable as other relatable gods.
ReplyDeleteAnswering Nicole's question in the inner circle, I believe humans crave order because it is predictable and comforting. Whenever something is out of line, it creates problems and feelings and chaos. You know what to expect when everything is orderly.
ReplyDeleteAs a response to a new inner circle question posed, I agree with Matthew in stating that their religion adds a purpose in life. People strive for the afterlife and the glory that will happen there.
ReplyDeleteBut the people in Babylon believed that afterlife was dark and not glorious.
DeleteIn the intro it says "the Babylonians believed that human beings has to make the most of their lives, in a world that lacked security and hope." (pg 152)
So what where they striving for in their religion during their lives?
When you have a religion that is not based on striving for a pleasurable afterlife, you have more of a motivation to find satisfaction in life.
Delete@paigeh Religion adds a purpose to their lives back then and our lives now. I had meant that we, now, strive for the second coming.
DeleteI agree that our purpose in life is to serve, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a higher power. People can serve things outside of what they see as a dominant authority- people have the ability to serve their passions or interests, those they care for, etc. It's unnecessary for this to be in context of "greatness", any form of serving can achieve the same depth and meaning in life.
ReplyDelete@Zach- But even in the christian creation story--Adam and Eve become savage after they eat the apple.
ReplyDeleteThat's part of what makes it so interesting. So many creation stories contain the idea of an innate darkness or savagery, but why?
DeleteGeorge, I agree with you but I think that their religion was not only their structure in their society, but their lives pretty much WERE their religion. They didnt just "use" their religion to give them another purpose. They viewed their religion as the only purpose of their life. They lived for it.
ReplyDeleteMichael, while they may be innately corrupt, there can still be morals within the society. We are both innately flawed and yet at the sometime capable of doing great things.
ReplyDeleteInner Circle: p.157 "Then the gods brought forth a garment, placed it before Marduk, and said, 'To prove your power , make this garment vanish and reappear." - Does this text relate to outside material? For example, Jesus turns water into wine. His disciples demanded proof, while his close disciples didn't question him.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great allusion.
DeleteTo answer the inner circle's question about religion... Religion plays a huge role in the lives of the Babylonians. Based on the reading we did, humans were created to serve the gods. Also, they believed that natural disasters were the result of the gods' wrath. So religion was really the base of Babylonian life and was a basis for all of their actions.
ReplyDeleteMen being over women was just how society was back then and just how they acted. I believe that it was what was normal.
ReplyDeleteresponding to inner circle.
ReplyDeleteReligion to the Babylonians is indeed very important and affect daily life everyday to these people. Religion is thought of everyday, and is very important to them, it has always been and still is very important.
Questioning everything is our human nature and that's why now throughout time we have come to everyone having a right to religion and everyone can think what they want, back then I don't think they had a choice
ReplyDeleteI agree Nicole
DeleteQuestion: What motive can you see to having such an indirect storyline to creating human and what influenced the society to be so polytheistic as opposed to the common monotheism that we see today?
ReplyDeleteI think that throughout this story, and mythology in general, humans are struggling not only to understand why they exist but also to remember some of their history. Myth is an attempt to bring a deeper meaning to life more than to fill in a "back story" for the events of their lives.
ReplyDeleteVivian, I think this shows that the idea of humility has been important to multiple cultures throughout the ages and shows the people who is the true leader
ReplyDelete@EmilyJ, I never said that person had to be good to exist. I just wanted to say that good and evil are not necessarily opposites. If you would like to debate the idea that there is such a thing as good or evil I would be more than happy to. I agree that the actions we take form our identity, but parts of ourselves are also defined by the external, such as our environment, and the people around us. Otherwise nurture is completely disregarded in nature vs. nuture.
ReplyDeleteInner Circle: Women vs. Men Why are women always viewed as weaker? The Mother Goddess is in charge, but she eventually gets "kicked" out.
ReplyDelete(Matthew) Children depend on their mothers when they are younger, but as they grow older they look to the dad to hunt and provide for the family.
Are there other examples of women who are overlooked, even after all they have done?
I think that Babylonians lived their life with one main goal and that goal was to have a good afterlife. So many of their traditions and everyday activities were based off of their religious beliefs.
ReplyDeleteIn conjunction with the inner circle, why was Tiamat's death significant? How does the death of the primary mother goddess affect psychological and gender roles in society?
ReplyDeleteExcellent question Michael. What do you think?
DeleteGreg
ReplyDeleteI believe that authority is both innate and bestowed. Obviously in the story Marduk is crowned god of all gods by someone else, but he would not have risen to the challenges that he faced if he was not a leader.
Inner Circle: We see the sun before the moon; however, in the story, the moon is seen as the father of the sun. Why is this?
ReplyDeleteTo respond to the maternal/paternal based discussion from earlier. I think there is a misunderstanding amongst some of you as to how the gods relate to humans. Killing your god son is far different from a parent murdering their child today. The gods (except Marduk as we read) are capable of taking care of themselves from birth and are not nurtured into existence. They are instantly equals with their parents rather than what we see on Earth where there is a certain dependance on parental figures for guidance.
ReplyDeleteThe whole women vs. men topic takes root in ancient ancient times when woman were mostly seen as preparing food and for nurturing. Most women weren't capable of anything like hunting which is apparently superior to cooking. This is how people began to believe men were superior. From this hunting point in time men were brainwashed to believe that they were superior in every way, and this is why it is evident in the reading for today.
ReplyDelete@Michael... Tiamat's death was significant because it represented the end of a corrupted generation. It effected the gender roles by putting men over women in society.
ReplyDeleteMichael, Tiamat's death was significant because it started basically a new age. It is a little like how the Greek Gods defeated the Titans to start their new age. I think it affected gender roles because the people saw that a woman lost badly to a man. It might have just strengthened the thought that men were better.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of Vivian said, I believe that most our culture today is really based around the idea of believing in what you see in. We can all believe that Obama is our current president, because he's here, and he's present. But to believe in a god is so much more different, because it requires people to present their faith without a physical figure. Any god isn't a tangible figure, but someone who is so much more than us, which leaves us to decide for ourselves if God/gods do exist, without nothing more than a bible.
ReplyDeleteInner Circle: Egyptian Gods vs. Babylonian gods. The Egyptians saw their gods as predictable while the Babylonians didn't. Think about this...The nile is very predictable when it floods; however, the Tigris and Euphrates are not. Coincidence?
ReplyDelete@Courtney B, so why is authority not completely innate? Wouldn't he just have risen to authority from the beginning if he were a born-leader? Why would he need their approval?
ReplyDeleteInner Circle- What do you think about the creation of the generations and how they have impacted our everyday life ??
ReplyDeleteIn addition to what Marco has said, if you look at all of history--oral stories throughout modern day text, women have always caused the downfall of men. :(
ReplyDeleteMichael, I think the death of the mother god is more indicative of the loss of perfection and the spread of corruption that has occured over history. When Tiamat was killed, it marked the end to the reign of either of the two gods that were originally reigning. Trully this is the mark of true widespread expansion of corruption in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteExcellent discussion everyone. Be sure to read the intro of Gilgamesh for Monday. Have a fantastic weekend. GO BRONCOS and WARRIORS!!!
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